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  1. #106

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROBOCOP View Post
    I wouldn't call £18m for Kier a 'small fine' and the others aren't far short of that either - not sure how some of the firms will stay afloat if they have to pay in full and where that leaves councils who have contracts with them.
    Kier group have a market cap of £413Mill at the moment, £18m is a drop in the ocean.

  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Kier group have a market cap of £413Mill at the moment, £18m is a drop in the ocean.
    Not sure where you got that figure or its relevance but I do know their net profit fell 66% to £16.1 million this year and that is before the £18m fine was imposed.

    Despite such firms being awarded projects with high capital values they carry high debts in terms of working capital as most projects can run for several years before they are paid and even then their margins aren't that big anymore (between 5-10%).

  3. #108

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROBOCOP View Post
    Not sure where you got that figure or its relevance but I do know their net profit fell 66% to £16.1 million this year and that is before the £18m fine was imposed.

    Despite such firms being awarded projects with high capital values they carry high debts in terms of working capital as most projects can run for several years before they are paid and even then their margins aren't that big anymore (between 5-10%).
    That value is the value of their business in terms of their shares. ie. there are £413Mill of shares out, owned by shareholders. (Company Comparison - Google Finance should not focus on their profits - as this is simply a reflection of how well they did this year. And considering this is a recession year, and they made a profit, I'd be happy if I were them.

    Also remember, they are being fined for doing illegal things. So it doesn't matter if it damages their profits - they shouldn't have done it. No-one should feel sorry for companies that screwed tax payers out of millions of pounds. They wouldn't have been making such profits if they had been operating legitimately in the first place.

  4. #109

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    You can't value a business in terms of shares as that's only the market value at any point in time and regardless the company does not own the shares so cannot use them to generate capital to pay such fines - all they can do is reduce or stop any annual dividend to shareholders. The only available money once all other liabilities have been met is the profit - or of course extending company debt.

    I'm not defending them - just saying that companies such as this may fold due to such high fines and in the long run this does not benefit anyone least of all their employees.

  5. #110
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROBOCOP View Post
    You can't value a business in terms of shares as that's only the market value at any point in time and regardless the company does not own the shares so cannot use them to generate capital to pay such fines - all they can do is reduce or stop any annual dividend to shareholders. The only available money once all other liabilities have been met is the profit - or of course extending company debt.

    I'm not defending them - just saying that companies such as this may fold due to such high fines and in the long run this does not benefit anyone least of all their employees.
    that sounds like a resonable point. I'm no business expert, but i too wouldn't rely on maket cap as an accurate guage of how a fine might affect a companies' cash flow or ability to access working capital.

  6. #111
    pritchardavid's Avatar
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    Any one heard who is taking the thurrock area? i work in South Ockendon at the Ockendon School

    Would like to know who is doing this area, or has it not be decided yet?

  7. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by davep000 View Post
    Any one heard who is taking the thurrock area? i work in South Ockendon at the Ockendon School

    Would like to know who is doing this area, or has it not be decided yet?
    Bidding is just starting as far as I am aware.

  8. #113
    Face-Man's Avatar
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    Equitix/Dell are the prefered bidder in cambridgeshire - Fenland.

    equitix Ltd.

  9. #114
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    It has been noted by a few people (including their rivals) that RM are usually only winning where they already have a significant presence
    Our school has pretty much no RM involvement (I really don't understand who does, to be honest) but we do get our Internet through SEGFL, is that RM?

    What I don't also get, is whether or not - as it seems RM or anyone has has little or no involvement in our school - is whether BSF will ever actually affect me?

    Can schools choose? That is, do they have an option to say, actually, we like the way our ICT is being run and we want to keep it that way, or not? I guess I don't really understand what BSF is.

    As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

    Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.

  10. #115

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    Our school has pretty much no RM involvement (I really don't understand who does, to be honest) but we do get our Internet through SEGFL, is that RM?

    What I don't also get, is whether or not - as it seems RM or anyone has has little or no involvement in our school - is whether BSF will ever actually affect me?

    Can schools choose? That is, do they have an option to say, actually, we like the way our ICT is being run and we want to keep it that way, or not? I guess I don't really understand what BSF is.

    As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

    Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.
    If the school is included in BSF, and they want building work doing using BSF funding, then they have to be included in the ICT side of things - unless they can come up with an alternative case for keeping it in house (as far as I'm aware, no-one has succeeded doing this as yet?). So, the issue is - the BSF groups dangle the big golden carrot of new buildings in front of the school and they mostly fall into line.

  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

    Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.
    BSF is an LEA-wide objective and several consortiums are invited to tender for a particular LEA's business. Each consortium consists of several companies, usually something like a building company, It Services, possibly grounds maintainance etc. The winning bidder then gets to build/refurbish the schools and provide other services such as IT support, this part of the consortium is known as the Managed Service Provider (MSP) and I would imagine this would affect you most directly, as part of the managed service the company needs people to maintain the school networks etc. and you will be TUPEd over (though not in all cases, depending on your role in school and if the head and governors feel you're too valuable to loose) to work for the MSP. You will not necessarily work in the same school as you do currently.
    THe BSF provider receives rent for 25-30 years, depending on the deal struck with the LEA, at the end of which time the school then reverts back to the LEA, and that's one of the ways companies make money from this process. The MSP receives a sum of money from each school's budget of £x per pupil per year (this amount varies from LEA to LEA and depends on the deals each individual LEA has struck with their provider) to provide IT support.
    Each contract lasts for 5 years, at the end of which period the LEA can go for another provider if they are not satisfied with the service provided by the current provider. I was told by our LEA BSF negotiator that we wouldn't be taken back by the schools but would remain in stasis and TUPE over to the new provider, which begs several big questions.
    Teachers and classroom assistants, admin staff and the like are not going to be TUPEd over, this is mainly about IT staff.

    BSF is a huge subject and I suggest you search the BSF forums here. HTH

  12. #117
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by beeswax View Post
    BSF is an LEA-wide objective and several consortiums are invited to tender for a particular LEA's business
    But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way? What if the LEA is happy with the way their ship is running, and doesn't feel it is necessary, or do they simply not get a choice?

    I'm just very surprised that as I am in quite a large LEA (East Sussex) that nothing has happened, been spoken of or even indicated as going to happen.

    I will certainly research the matter some more, and to be honest, so long as I still have a job, it matters not if I'm 'tuped' or otherwise, but the simple lack of information for my area is not particularly helpful.

  13. #118

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way? What if the LEA is happy with the way their ship is running, and doesn't feel it is necessary, or do they simply not get a choice?

    I'm just very surprised that as I am in quite a large LEA (East Sussex) that nothing has happened, been spoken of or even indicated as going to happen.

    I will certainly research the matter some more, and to be honest, so long as I still have a job, it matters not if I'm 'tuped' or otherwise, but the simple lack of information for my area is not particularly helpful.
    There are hundreds of LEAs in the UK, and each one may end up being part of multiple waves. According to the PfS/Teachernet sites, East Sussex was down as a Wave 10-12 LEA, and is now ranked 24 in priority.

    And LEAs don't get to say no I don't think? I think it is an obligatory thing for them.

  14. #119
    jsnetman's Avatar
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    But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way?
    I know of at least one LA who bid for there own IT services (Newcastle) in partnership I think with dell or maybe it was northgate. I have been to some of the schools in the Newcastle authority and the IT staff are over the moon with the new setup. North Tyneside however seem already decided it has to be outsourced to an external company.

  15. #120

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    I think Newcastle were lucky, as a wave 1 BSF Pathfinder LA they got through the process before Partnership for Schools had finished writing the rules......

    As I understand it now, any LA can submit a bid to Partnership for Schools for BSF funding regardless of which wave they were in; if successful they will be awarded funds to rebuild/renovate schools, Partnership for Schools expect LAs to outsource their school ICT as part of their bid; in theory individual schools can opt out either by preparing a business case for funding to manage their ICT themselves (not as easy as it sounds) or by declining the BSF ICT funding, typically worth >£1450 per student. Few have gone down either route.....

    Most ICT outsourcing has gone to the private sector, I believe a very small number of LAs have managed to follow Newcastle & come up with some form of joint LA/Private sector managed service solution but this seems to be generally frowned upon by Partnership for Schools.

    If you dig deep enough into the BSF forum threads you will find discussions covering the hurdles schools have to jump over to get funding directly; basically Partnership for Schools do not want school ICT to remain under the direct control of schools .....

    Just to add to the fun, many LAs are now discovering that the Govt is applying pressure on them to create academies as part of their BSF funding process.... those that don't agree to academies sometimes find it difficult to get BSF funding... if you understand what I mean

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