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BSF Thread, EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; After checking with the others who attended this seems to be a fairly complete report of the meeting from Friday ...
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    EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    After checking with the others who attended this seems to be a fairly complete report of the meeting from Friday 17th August at RM.

    Although the report is fairly long (12 pages) it does go into detail on areas of the BSF process that were worth highlighting.

    The report is based on RM's approach but questions asked where those that had been raised in other discussions and will be used when meeting with other BSF contract winners.

    This report is not intended to state the preference of EduGeek.net, or any of its members, towards a Managed Service supplier, or whether we are completely supportive or against the BSF and Managed Service solution.

    This has been an information gathering exercise and also a chance to challenge a company winning contracts for Managed Services.

    Although this is version 1 of the report subsequent ammenments may be made to deal with spelling and grammar, or even a change of wording or emphasis from those who attended.

    This report can be circulated freely but all quotes should referrence edugeek.net and the BSF forum.

    Please use this thread and this thread only to discuss elements arising fromthe report but feel free to link back to previous or future discussions for reference.

    Thank you for your patience whilst I have been finishing the report.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Doesn't really answer much does it....

    Still the same scenario...... and this is not good news

    IF you are CONSIDERED for TUPE ?!?! means no real job security.

    They say that there is no contract termination..... but you didn't ask about retrenchments due to economics as the DTI says that Tuped staff can be pruned...

    The idea of Managed Solutions is to save money by getting some of the support into RM's remote support Department.. so why would they need all the Staff to be TUPED if a lot of the needed support areas are no longer on site. ??

    And they are going to keep a £28k per year Netwotk Manager ?!?!... yea right..



    As for innovations.. if there are only Support Drones left on site who is going to lead the ICT Innovation ? So RM really don't have to worry about innovations so their answer is meaningless

    Looks like all RM Contracts will be using CC3

    You didn't ask about the SLA, Legacy Equipment, or grill them about server support...

    You also did not press them on the School staff that were not TUPED... were they working still in ICT support or were they put into other positions ?



    From what I have witnessed within the BSF myself ...... is that the LA bring their own ICT Consultants in to the school to advise the school and lead the tendering process.. then reporting ONLY to the Head and the Project Board... So a Technician really has no input on which way the school is going and the Network Manager generally gets sidelined as they might have different ideas to the new LA/School ICT uber Consultants … which they don’t want…...

    The problem here as I see it is that people believe that they will have some say or input when the BSF starts..
    When it starts you might get to the first couple of meetings.... those are the ones where they decide on which ICT consulting company they are going to use and what is the schools vision of the future..

    Then the big boys like SOCITM come in to spend the Million Pounds…… and

    Then it runs like a out of control juggernaut………



    PS.. And you did not ask about what roles the staff that stayed at the school were given..

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Some of the answers to these questions have already been made a while ago but I will try to further explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    Doesn't really answer much does it....

    Still the same scenario...... and this is not good news

    IF you are CONSIDERED for TUPE ?!?! means no real job security.

    They say that there is no contract termination..... but you didn't ask about retrenchments due to economics as the DTI says that Tuped staff can be pruned...

    The idea of Managed Solutions is to save money by getting some of the support into RM's remote support Department.. so why would they need all the Staff to be TUPED if a lot of the needed support areas are no longer on site. ??

    And they are going to keep a £28k per year Netwotk Manager ?!?!... yea right..
    If it is written in the contract that they employ you then they will do so for the period of the contract. To then go back on this is not only a breach of TUPE regulations but a breach of contract too ... Unions love that sort of stuff as do employment tribunals.

    If they employ you directly and you are on £28k, you stay on 28k and go up their scales. They seemed to make an emphasis on staff staying in schools but I should have asked about what happens through natural wastage ... I will put that as a further question to them. If the NM leaves does he get replaced by an equivalent NM or by a lower scale techie.

    As for innovations.. if there are only Support Drones left on site who is going to lead the ICT Innovation ? So RM really don't have to worry about innovations so their answer is meaningless

    Looks like all RM Contracts will be using CC3
    Nah ... CC4 ;-)

    They put in whatever is requested. That was one of the key things that cropped up time and time again. If the LA say they want a Viglen solution and RM put it in their final tender then that is what gets provided ... if it is Vanilla ... that is what is provided.

    You didn't ask about the SLA, Legacy Equipment, or grill them about server support...

    You also did not press them on the School staff that were not TUPED... were they working still in ICT support or were they put into other positions ?
    The only staff they will not take across are those they are told not too as they will remain with the school / LA or those that the LA or school gets rid of first. That was stated as one of the caveats about how the LA may approach things.

    From what I have witnessed within the BSF myself ...... is that the LA bring their own ICT Consultants in to the school to advise the school and lead the tendering process.. then reporting ONLY to the Head and the Project Board... So a Technician really has no input on which way the school is going and the Network Manager generally gets sidelined as they might have different ideas to the new LA/School ICT uber Consultants … which they don’t want…...

    The problem here as I see it is that people believe that they will have some say or input when the BSF starts..
    When it starts you might get to the first couple of meetings.... those are the ones where they decide on which ICT consulting company they are going to use and what is the schools vision of the future..
    Most LAs fail to realise that they have a batch of consultants ready to used that are based in schools ... That is yet another reason why we are doing this ... to raise awareness that we know what we are talking about ... that is why Becta ask us to get involved in dialogue about the specifications ... that is why there are a growing number of Specialist Schools that are getting involved in the BSF process as consultants. The same innovative schools that don't want anything to do with the LA are getting involved telling them how to do things.

    Then the big boys like SOCITM come in to spend the Million Pounds…… and

    Then it runs like a out of control juggernaut………

    PS.. And you did not ask about what roles the staff that stayed at the school were given..
    If you stay employed by the school it is up to the school to do with you as they want. That is why it is important to make sure that you get a current job description and make sure your contract is right. At this point it comes down to the school and the management there.

    I will ask for examples from schools that have done this and try to get statements from individuals involved.

    Thanks for your feedback.

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    How long is it before RM can terminate contracts of staff that have been
    TUPEd across?
    Unless specifically otherwise mentioned within the main bid all TUPEd jobs
    are secure for the length of the contract, whether it is 5 years or 10 years.
    No bid at this time specifies that this is different.
    We don't get to see the main bid - it's commercially sensitive. Under TUPE regs they must disclose redundancy - but it may only be a small page on a LA website...

    Wages will be matched to existing wages and will be compared against the
    RM wage structure. If you need to be moved up the scale in comparison to
    others in the same job you will be moved up the scale but you will not be
    moved down or have your wages capped.
    your salary is protected by TUPE !
    Any changes to terms and conditions must be mutually agreed. RM cannot insist that you change to an RM contract of employment unless it's a technical or economic reason, not that the reason is the transfer itself.

    Do you have any general agreements with any of the unions?
    There are no collective agreements or recognition agreements with any
    unions but unions are regarded as a key stakeholder.
    How can the unions be regarded as a key stakeholder if they don't even have a recognition agreement ?.

    If RM were committed to consultation with unison they would already have a recognition agreement like other outsource companies eg capita,liberater

    I will put that as a further question to them. If the NM leaves does he get replaced by an equivalent NM or by a lower scale techie.
    It's covered by the "two tier workforce code" which states that any new starters after the transfer must not be employed on any less favourable conditions than those transferred under TUPE.

    Thus if a £20k p/a mouse changer (with no specific contract) gets transferred then all mouse changers in the organisation must then earn £20k.

    I must say it does look like RM are quite concerned - most outsource companies don't enter in discussion on public forums.

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Should you be considered for TUPE then active involvement with your
    union is key to ensuring the new contract is correct.
    This is an important statement. If you sign a new contract with RM you loose TUPE protection If they want to downgrade after the transfer they can and it will be by their policies and procedures ! NOT by TUPE - ie - what they say wrt TUPE is correct - they can't downgrade you - but they can if you accept an RM contract - which you will have to.

    The statement indicates that they will be expecting those transferred to accept the new RM contract, not the existing contract (due to organisational, technical or economic reasons). For example the scenario could be that in the new organisation (RM) only 50% of the workforce is required and in order to achieve the reduction there will be competitive interviews for the new job. The remainder would be made redundant.

    @Grumbledook
    Please can you find out if RM have an equality proofed pay and grading structure. Also if they could publish their employment stability policy.

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    @cyber

    I think what was meant by that is that new contract aka bsf contract is correct in sense of what LEA HR department and what people are doing on ground are two different things. So making sure that if lea say you never do overtime but school says you do that it is new bsf contract and tuping etc so nothing is missed out.

    But Tony if you could get that clarified think would be useful..

    Russ

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    @cyber

    I think what was meant by that is that new contract aka bsf contract is correct in sense of what LEA HR department and what people are doing on ground are two different things. So making sure that if lea say you never do overtime but school says you do. That the new bsf contract and tuping etc say all this so nothing is missed out.

    But Tony if you could get that clarified think would be useful..

    Russ

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    @Russdev


    Wages will be matched to existing wages and will be compared against the
    RM wage structure
    A clarification would most certainly be useful because from what I've been reading this cannot happen under TUPE, under TUPE your salary is protected and you get a pay rise in line with the LA. This only happens if you accept an RM contract and forfeit your TUPE protection.

    If they employ you directly and you are on £28k, you stay on 28k and go up their scales.
    No - you only go up RM scales if you have signed an RM contract. ie - your job has been evaluated by RM's equality proofed pay and grading scheme (if they have one...) otherwise (with TUPE) you stay with your existing contract. if you have RM contract you don't have any legal protection under TUPE. In this situation they can make redundancy outside of any contract with the LA and probably will.

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    No not being tupe expert but if you transfer under current terms and conditions then in theroy you would also get right to go up a scale each year until you hit the top which is right under public sector rules so that rule would follow you across.

    But some clarification on this is in order I think..

    Russ

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    No not being tupe expert but if you transfer under current terms and conditions then in theroy you would also get right to go up a scale each year until you hit the top which is right under public sector rules so that rule would follow you across.

    But some clarification on this is in order I think..

    Russ
    I don't think there is a LA Support payscale that goes up to £28 - £35k which is what most ICT Managers Earn ..

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    @Grommot most lea payscales do go up and beyond that just because your not on it dosn;t mean it don't exisit..

    Anyway think Grommit you misundertood me ost which is my fault I was not clear....

    So...

    If you are currently employed by LEA you under greenbook rules allowed to move up a point every year until you hit the top of your paygrade.

    In theroy if your rights and current terms and conditions are transferred across under tupe then that right is also transferred.

    So you can go up a point every year until you hit the top of the paygrade.

    Note i say paygrade and not payscale.

    So really example say in lea your on grade 9 point 1 (and there 5 points in grade 9) and when get tuped across that equals company a grade h point 1 (with 5 points in grade h). In theroy you would move up a point in grade h until you reached top. As the t/c of your job which is right to move up a point each year to top of grade are transferred across..

    Russell

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    @Grommot most lea payscales do go up and beyond that just because your not on it dosn;t mean it don't exisit..


    So really example say in lea your on grade 9 point 1 (and there 5 points in grade 9) and when get tuped across that equals company a grade h point 1 (with 5 points in grade h). In theroy you would move up a point in grade h until you reached top. As the t/c of your job which is right to move up a point each year to top of grade are transferred across..

    Russell
    Sorry.. What's that in Money terms ?

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    Again I am not talking about money I am talking about cybernerds comment..

    No - you only go up RM scales if you have signed an RM contract. ie - your job has been evaluated by RM's equality proofed pay and grading scheme (if they have one...) otherwise (with TUPE) you stay with your existing contract.
    That under current greenbook rules you have right to move up each yerar until you reach top of each paygrade. So that right transfers across under tupe.


    Sorry if you got confused by it.

    Russ

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    If you are currently employed by LEA you under greenbook rules allowed to move up a point every year until you hit the top of your paygrade.

    In theroy if your rights and current terms and conditions are transferred across under tupe then that right is also transferred.
    Yes, this is the TUPE rules. but what I have been saying is that all the evidence in the report seems to indicate that once people are TUPE'd to RM they end up with RM contracts which in effect bypasses TUPE. The only scenario when people for go their TUPE contract (the existing LA contract) is in a restructure/redundancy situation or they take a new job.

    That under current greenbook rules you have right to move up each yerar until you reach top of each paygrade. So that right transfers across under tupe.
    The point I was trying to make is that you move up the LEA pay scale -as its your right under tupe, until you reach the top. NOT an RM payscale. You only move up an RM payscale if you have an RM contract. The report talked of people promoted into new jobs etc - this isn't TUPE. lets be clear.

    RM's HR did a good job of muddying the water by saying that workers under TUPE are protected, but failing to mention what happens to their own staff.
    if you accept an RM contract TUPE does not apply What we need to see is their pay and grading scheme, their employment stability policy, their equalities policy etc. @russdev -see if you can get your RM mates to publish this.

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    Re: EduGeek.net BSF Report 1 - RM

    We are going to ask on Tuesday...

    you have right to move up top of paygrade not matter who scale it is LEA or RM as this right transferred under tupe.

    So you have right to move up to top of the paygrade no matter who it is..

    Now to move to next paygrade I agree and this is why going to ask for some clarification on stuff like if they move up a grade would you expect staff to sign a new contract removing there tupe rights..

    But no matter what you have legal right to move to top your current grade no matter who's grade it is.

    Of course cybernerd had you come you could of asked these questions direct.


    Russ

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