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BSF Thread, BSF Meeting in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by User3204 @Grommit. About Foundation schools, I was under the impression, that Foundation (and whatever else "opted-out" types), ...
  1. #31
    Grommit's Avatar
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by User3204
    @Grommit.

    About Foundation schools, I was under the impression, that Foundation (and whatever else "opted-out" types), were able to "choose" whether to join BSF or not.

    ...actually all schools are supposed to be able to choose...

    Of course, what they say _now_, may have changed in 5 years.

    -==-

    If you get TUPEd, it's because your SLT (and LEA) decide to TUPE you...

    -==-

    Actually our school is quite good at working with other schools... Primaries admittedly... we send out specialty staff to do teaching in the local "feeder" schools

    The fact that a lot of us are willing to sign up to this forum, means that we are able to work in groups... it's just, that, damnit... we want to be able to choose which groups.



    I'm sure there's lots (or at least some) things that the BSF scheme will introduce that we will want to sign upto, but there's lots of things that I don't (necessarily). Every so often I get chatting to the local RM chappie, and he shows off a really cool util, but we have to sign up to the full RM package to use it... But I don't want to... and I suspect I will see a lot of similar stuff....

    LEA wide VLE = Yes (because I'd rather not mess with it).
    LEA wide Internet = Maybe.
    LEA wide SIMS management = not with my LEA.
    LEA wide PC purchasing = NO! Not after using the machines they got from the LfT scheme.

    There's going to be a lot of the same type of stuff.

    I want to be able to select "modules" of support etc... but I doubt this will be possible. I want to be able to continue to use my current suppliers, as they provide good service.. but I doubt I will be able to do this.



    I would have liked to be able to attend the meeting you had with RM, but I had to work (ha) so I will wait until the notes are all typed up...

    It would have been sensible for me (and others) to have written up a list of questions we wanted answering. -> I'm sure someone will now point me to a thread where this happened, but I managed to miss...


    -==-

    Do you have any plans to contact other bid winners... actually not sure who any of them are (I'm guessing Capita will have tried)...
    @user3204..

    Yes all schools can choose to be in or out of the BSF... but what's ther enot to choose about 15 to 20 Million Pounds ?

    We are a Foundation School.. because we want no interference from other schools and yes we do assist our feeder schools..

    Under the BSF you ENTIRE ICT Support department is handed over to a 3rd Party Contractor...

    You will be offered a job with this new company..

    You will no longer be involved with purchasing ICT equiptment as this will be between the new company sales consultant and the Senior Staff of your school..

    You will no longer be able to decide on what you can do with the School Network as this will all be decided by the new comapny..

  2. #32

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    The TUPE consultation period prior to the transfer must disclose to all affected employees whether the new employer envisages any changes to the workforce (reducing the workforce). This is the law and not something RM are doing to be nice, they are simply not allowed to make redundancy to TUPE employees unless they have disclosed so in the consultation period.

    Unfortunately the TUPE regulations do not extend to consultation with edugeek because edugeek isn't part of the affected workforce (although we might be individually) therefore they can be telling edugeek one thing and saying something completely different to the affected workforce (trade union rep). This consultation isn't part of the consultation, and shouldn't be taken as such.

    My feeling is that the point of this meeting with edugeek (and the reason I didn't attend) is purely an exercise to raise the profile of RM/BSF as a result of consistent bad press. The consultation document with the individual LA's are the only documents which are legally binding.

    but thanks for your time anyway.
    That you are right lea documents are binding document...

    Question do you know when you need to get involved with talking people, at what point ict documents are set in stone part from minor changes....

    You don't well good thing we went along and asked the questions for you then and type it in a report. Point was not about consultation which if you had come you would have known. It was about from edugeek side finding out some facts, finding out about some of the hidden process.

    If you had come you would of course know that rm said no two bsf projects are a like each one is blank sheet. So EVERYTHING is open to negation by lea if they can make business case for it.

    But as said if you had come would know that but heck you decided not to so if felt meeting was no use feel free to ignore the notes. If you don't want something to help you when bsf party comes to town fine that is your choice...

    Anyway I have said enough we are going over old ground will take back seat until notes are released then you can judge for yourself..

    Russ

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    Yes all schools can choose to be in or out of the BSF... but what's ther enot to choose about 15 to 20 Million Pounds ?
    Where do you get this figure from ?

    I know what the ICT figures are, but I've been looking about for the wholescheme figures, per school/pupil/LEA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    We are a Foundation School.. because we want no interference from other schools and yes we do assist our feeder schools..

    Under the BSF you ENTIRE ICT Support department is handed over to a 3rd Party Contractor...

    You will be offered a job with this new company..

    You will no longer be involved with purchasing ICT equiptment as this will be between the new company sales consultant and the Senior Staff of your school..

    You will no longer be able to decide on what you can do with the School Network as this will all be decided by the new comapny..
    Sounds like a crap job then.... time to move on.

    I like the [bold]POWER[/bold] I have now... !

    Still, I suppose if I get involved with the BSF process, I can then use this as a bounce to another job.... "oh, yes, I was the BSF co-ordinator for the school, sir, now give me a job!".

    I keep saying to myself... 5 years is a _long_ time... and I keep not believing me.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Hi guys,

    I think there are too many people making assumption regarding BSF without having real facts or having knowlege of BSF process. I'm going to wait untl Tony has uploaded the notes but will say that some the assumptions people are making are clearly wrong or misleading.

    As Russ mentioned no two BSF projects are the same and people really do need to understand this point to the T.

    If you are nearing the BSF at your place i suggest that you get more info from your LEA as possible and have regular meetings with them to keep yourself updated with what's happening.


    Ash.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    @russdev don't get me wrong, I'm very interested in what RM have to say, I'm also inclined to take their comments with a large pinch of salt. It is certainly within their rights to lobby us - after all the more we demand, the more is written into contract and the more money they get.

    There is already a LOT of information published on BSF, it's not all assumptions as much of the info is publicly available. We are right to be having this debate.
    http://www.p4s.org.uk/StandardDocumentList.htm
    the standard contract and ICT output specs may be interesting to some, I wonder how many Schools/LA's will be just ticking boxes...

  6. #36
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by ashok
    Hi guys,

    I think there are too many people making assumption regarding BSF without having real facts or having knowlege of BSF process. I'm going to wait untl Tony has uploaded the notes but will say that some the assumptions people are making are clearly wrong or misleading.

    As Russ mentioned no two BSF projects are the same and people really do need to understand this point to the T.

    If you are nearing the BSF at your place i suggest that you get more info from your LEA as possible and have regular meetings with them to keep yourself updated with what's happening.


    Ash.
    Sorry mate... I have been through the BSF process and I saw what it did...

    I was there when they said "All ICT is to be taken over and you will be assimilated" ....

    (Moved to new thread)

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    ”Under the BSF you ENTIRE ICT Support department is handed over to a 3rd Party Contractor...
    You will be offered a job with this new company..”

    What if your IT department is 1 man who spends 50% of his time in classrooms doing classroom working with children as you’re a small school? What about the stuff the IT staff do that’s not covered by the Contractor? What about pensions if your TUPED?

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    If I may be so bold, I honestly think Grommit is the one here who's talking sense and understands the reality of commercial pressures, PLC PR and TUPEing.

    From my perspective it seems some people here are viewing the world through rose tinted spectacles (intentionally or otherwise). Either that or there's some atractive blonde PR bunny they met from RM who's pretending to be their friend

    From my experience, there are plenty of people out there who would be happy to be owned by RM or similar. I've met lots of technicians and even network managers who are simply incapable of handling any responsibility or working methodically. These people would be more than happy to be an unthinking servant drone. It doesn't really sell school IT outsourcing to me on a personal or corporate level.

  9. #39
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    atractive blonde PR bunny they met from RM
    Can I meet your RM rep, sounds nice, the local RM bods, are all blokes, and I just don't fancy them...


    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    I was there when they said "All ICT is to be taken over and you will be assimilated"
    Have gone through the BSF process ?
    And then been TUPEd and sacked by the new Overlords ?


    I know someone who was outsourced from the Home Office (to ICL I think), ages back now, and he was alright with it. But I think they soon discovered he was one of the few that new what was going on, and they couldn't sack him.


    I keep trying to bring up BSF here, but the only firm replys I get is a "oh, no it won't happen here", but this is from someone who will be leaving next year... We're due in waves 10-12, so this is 2012-2014 I want to be ready.

    I might see if I can convince the Bursar into making me the local BSF coordinator for the school, and then I can get some inside information.... The problem would then be, if it went wrong, it would be my fault. I'd like to know who the LEA BSF people are, as they _should_ be starting the process now.

  10. #40

    Geoff's Avatar
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    I suspect whoever I get outsourced to will be unable to afford me. The commercial rates for my knowledge and skills being what they are.

  11. #41
    Grommit's Avatar
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas
    If I may be so bold, I honestly think Grommit is the one here who's talking sense and understands the reality of commercial pressures, PLC PR and TUPEing.

    From my perspective it seems some people here are viewing the world through rose tinted spectacles (intentionally or otherwise). Either that or there's some atractive blonde PR bunny they met from RM who's pretending to be their friend

    From my experience, there are plenty of people out there who would be happy to be owned by RM or similar. I've met lots of technicians and even network managers who are simply incapable of handling any responsibility or working methodically. These people would be more than happy to be an unthinking servant drone. It doesn't really sell school IT outsourcing to me on a personal or corporate level.
    I believe that the two people that are working on the BSF problem Grumbledook and russdev are supportive of the BSF process.. So are they thinking from the right angle ?

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Personally, I think no, but I would like to hear why Messrs Dook and Dev do support it.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    It won't matter Geoff, your knowledge is irrelevant to them. As long as you can change a toner and be another one of their drones that's all they're bothered about.

    GrumbleDook is in school management and thus won't be affected in the way us Network Managers and Technicians will be.

    Russdev is a Network Manager and will be affected; but from what I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong, Russ..) he prefers to be more on the educational side anyway (an "Educational Technologist") rather than managing networks and infrastructure like we do.

  14. #44

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    If you had read my previous post, I never said I supported it. I am realest only thing that will stop bsf is one lack of money or two change of government.

    Therefore, while bsf is an issue I will work so that people have info and possible change it so people do not lose jobs due to having some info.

    I would rather be told in future that what I did waste of time than be accused of sitting doing nothing at all.

    Interestingly I had first glimmer of hope that bsf project might be stopped in future...

    As there is real poss that might not be enough money left to run through to end of project if Mr Brown or whoever decides not to increase funding in later years.

    Yes, I know people would like me to be the bad person ok if I condemned bsf outright and like some people on here just sat and moaned about it. How as that helped anyone?

    If I provide some info on when to get involved in process, what can help at least attempt to save your job then I have done something.

    We have always said we can't get rid of bsf so lets get as much info as possible on it and try and give ict support staff the power back slightly knowledge is power as they say...

    As for whom deals with bsf on here yes me and Tony as no one else has offered to pester people, sit in on meetings, and make phone call after phone call on issue. Heck rm meeting we opened to everyone sent some invites to some very anti-bsf members.. I was one of main people giving rm a hard time in meeting.

    @webman I like all of it I like educational side but also love getting hands dirty on the network. I am a true believer in the cross network manager/educational technologist but that is thread for another day...

    Russell

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Pottsey
    ”Under the BSF you ENTIRE ICT Support department is handed over to a 3rd Party Contractor...
    You will be offered a job with this new company..”

    What if your IT department is 1 man who spends 50% of his time in classrooms doing classroom working with children as you’re a small school? What about the stuff the IT staff do that’s not covered by the Contractor? What about pensions if your TUPED?
    The first part depends on two things.
    1) The process working properly
    2) The school valuing you contribution enough to make your position non negotiable (unless the offers is appeals to all parties).

    Now just becuase your job is as you describe it now, doesn't mean that is how you want it to be - provided 1 and 2 are true you have a great opportunity in BSF.

    I suspect from the slant you put on your post that the classroom support matters more to you that the changing toner. If that is so then that *MUST* be made clear to the LEA early on and in the forefront of the bidders minds as they pull together their proposal.

    I would suggest in your case that you would be retained by the School as some sort of classroom assistant with technical training from the ICT Partner, thus authorised to provide tech support as well.

    or

    Maybe you'd be TUPEd, not as a technicain, but instead as some sort of Educational Support person, providing support in classroom across several schools.

    Second part, your pension is protected by law under TUPE.

    Russ: The 4Ps model is Gordon Brown's baby, and given Ed Balls (GB's protege, and tipped for the future top job at the Treasurey) is now heading up Schools. I'd be quite supprised if the investment programme is really stopped.

    Back to TUPE for a second

    Pinched from a website:
    "....
    dismissal for a reason connected with the transfer of a business or undertaking is automatically unfair unless the employer can show that the reason was "an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce" (reg 8(1) and (2) of the TUPE regulations, SI 1981/1794
    ....."

    I'm looking a proposal right now that reduces my teams' number by half.

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