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BSF Thread, BSF Meeting in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by Ric_ Originally Posted by Grommit I think some people are starting to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome It ...
  1. #16
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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    I think some people are starting to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome
    It is unfair to say that.

    I agree that working under a managed service will inevitably be stifling and the way that they are run reduces the chance to be innovative.

    My point was that you will not necessarily end up as a toner-changer or be sacked after 90 days. What is certain is that the LA who writes the tender documents will decide what they feel you should be doing and that is what the managed service will be contracted to provide.
    So me as a Network Manager and Budget Holder can be assured of a equally Paid, Positioned, Responsibility Job with the Managed Service Providor.... if the LA writes it in...

    I don't think so...

    I think Technicians have a role to play and most will be TUPED...and good on them... they will be TUPED over fine.. I mean what's the difference if you are changing toners for the school undr the NM's instruction or for the New Guys..

    it's about Network Managers that I have been talking about..

    I think ICT Managers have no position to look forward too... so lets say on average a ICT Manager has 2 -3 Technicians .. he is equal to 25 - 33% of the workforce..

    This means that 25 - 33% of Schools ICT workforce have no clear future prospects..

    So please tell me what RM said about Network Managers to put me at rest ..

  2. #17

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    So please tell me what RM said about Network Managers to put me at rest ..
    There will be a report about what RM said posted on EduGeek... I don't want to say too much in case it is taken out of context but there is no hard and fast rule... it is all down to the contact that the LA puts out to tender. No two contracts are the same.

    I understand your point Grommit about the whole responsibility thing and that has been acknowledged in one of my previous posts. It isn't all black and white though by all accounts. There are opportunities to take on similar roles in the winning bidders' organisations and there are certain stipulations set down by law governing pay and conditions when TUPED (e.g. pay cannot be lowered and holiday entitlement must remain the same).

    I am sure that not all of the organisations winning the contracts will be the same but RM do seem to care for the staff they take on and are even going as far as to protect pensions. Of course, EduGeek would like to have similar meetings with other bidders so that we can compare each organisations' views on BSF.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Grommit: There are also some of us who are Technicians by job title but do a lot more than just changing toners - website, VLE, even managing servers and other network infrastructure; but can't be Assistant Network Manager as the school doesn't recognise the role.

    So like Network Managers, us more "higher-level" technicians will be in the same boat.

    As for "finding similar roles" - I can only presume these would be teaching assistant -type roles. In which case it's not exactly Network Management. If we wanted to be in the classroom in the first place we would have done so already.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    @webman

    If talking about ric's comment first you have to get our of thinking that your one school... education in general is moving towards a model with groups of schools working together. There is really good podcast from one of slt unions somewhere will dig the url out goes on about this.

    Once you understand that not taking about one school but group of schools possible options are endless similar role in another local school, managing groups if techies, training and then taking on role as network specialist such as cisco specialist.

    The model of one school on there own is not a model that can be kept any longer in education due to various reasons. It depends on various factors as to what the model will look like. But people have to get out of that mindset of single school on there own.

    Russell

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    The model of one school on there own is not a model that can be kept any longer in education due to various reasons. It depends on various factors as to what the model will look like. But people have to get out of that mindset of single school on there own.
    Hmm a little prescriptive advice there :P

    Is that all phase 1 BSF schools that need to get out of that mindset? What about independent schools, or foundation schools? Like I said in earlier post, how many people think that outsourcing IT provision will truely provide all BSF schools with cheaper IT provision and a better service?

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Maybe it was a slight rant

    Think lot of staff not just ict staff are not able to get out that mindset and move to thinking of schools working as group. As said this podcast describes it lot better than I do.



    http://podcasts.rm.com/national%20co...ary_London.mp3

    Keynote Address: Dr John Dunford, General Secretary, Association of School and College Leaders

    Dr John Dunford explores the 14-19 curriculum with a focus on leadership, change and collaboration.



    Independent schools have been working on this model for years with Independent schools in same area working together and even having a central managed way of working..

    As for

    "many people think that outsourcing IT provision will truely provide all BSF schools with cheaper IT provision and a better service?"

    I have never said it would but BSF is here to get it scrapped is going to take Gordon brown to intervene and as he is big on pfi that an't going to happen any time soon (even if heads kicked up fuss).

    So I have got three options: -

    1) Stomp my feet and moan about it - outcome bsf still comes and while all moaning was going on lea have tuped everyone across and we have the worst case..

    2) Deny that bsf exists - Outcome bsf still comes and while all moaning was going on lea have tuped everyone across and we have the worst case..

    3) Work with bsf suppliers, psf, lea's, slt, schools get all facts work out where I can influence the process. Have open dialogue on all sides - Outcome There is chance I can make difference make sure that either not tuped or if tuped that protection in place so me as a network manager doesn't become a 'toner changer'..

    Look I know and understand amount of fear that staff have I have exact same fears. What I decided was to make sure that I could influence the process when it comes to lea. Make sure I have several options come BSF time then I can pick and choose what I want to do.

    I think whole BSF thing could of been made lot better and government had done few things at start we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    But then comes to old thing of long term career development ...

    Russ

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    The problem with having schools "working as a group", is that the previous scenarios of this we see, are the LEA.... and a lot of people don't like they way that the LEA make you do things certain ways, especially in ICT Support.

    Our school went Grant Maintained -> Foundation -> (possibly) Trust, "just" to make sure that the LEA can't tell us what to do.

    If I had to follow what the LEA told me to do with the ICT, or had used them as support (other than just as an ISP) then I would have left this job ages ago.

    I have been told that this school is "very unlikely" to join the BSF scheme, but things may have changed in 5 years...

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Foundation Schools are part of the BSF

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    @webman

    If talking about ric's comment first you have to get our of thinking that your one school... education in general is moving towards a model with groups of schools working together. There is really good podcast from one of slt unions somewhere will dig the url out goes on about this.

    Once you understand that not taking about one school but group of schools possible options are endless similar role in another local school, managing groups if techies, training and then taking on role as network specialist such as cisco specialist.

    The model of one school on there own is not a model that can be kept any longer in education due to various reasons. It depends on various factors as to what the model will look like. But people have to get out of that mindset of single school on there own.

    Russell
    MY God!!!! You have gone over to The Darkside...

    Our School is a Foundation School.. because the SLT wanted freedom from the LA or LEA.. thhis was after the BSF finished....

    The only thing that MIGHT link us to other schools is the VLE...... Thats all... and that damn pesky PLASC return... nothing else..

    Also having a shared Managed Service is not really going to make much difference to the over all Teaching and Learning .. is it?

    and as for cheaper..

    our in-house support costs £ 70 000 for 24 hour support and will do anything asked

    BSF wanted £133 000 wtih a whole lot of no no's... like legacy equiptment over 3 years not supported..etc

    So double the price.. less the service

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    @Grommit

    To clarify I do not mean group of managed services schools.

    I mean schools working together be that what ever model from schools forming local partnership (but each school controlled and managed on there own).

    To schools being managed as a group (as in head of each school and director that oversees the whole partnership) to a single head over seeing 3 schools.

    Russell

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    From an SLT slant it is impossible to offer everything that is needed on your own anymore.

    The introduction of Diplomas is forcing schools to collaborate. We are a Foundation school and are moving to Trust School status ... but we still have to link and work with other schools ... and considering what is happening in our town that is nigh on impossible. Ask Kingswood how little schools share and how hard they compete around here!

    But ... we know that some compromises will have to be made. I have sat down and seen the figures at school and LA level know and I am flippin' petrified.

    I can't see how some of the logistics can be managed for transporting kids between schools ... I can't see how information can be easily shared ... and I sure as hell can't see how the politics will allow it all to happen.

    But ... all of this is being done to bring to 'lower quality' schools up to standard. The Govt view it that successful (or even moderately good) schools have a duty to help those that are falling behind. And yes ... I have visited schools across England and seen how federation can make a massive difference to the 'poorer' partners without pulling back the successful school.

    And this is a model created by the innovative schools before the Govt decided to make it a country wide thing.

    If you want to blame anyone then go blame schools like Ninestyles, Thomas Telford and Djanogly.

    And I will say this to you one final time before ignoring anymore BSF stuff until I have had time to send the notes round to the others that attended.

    A managed service does not mean that you will be TUPEd. If you are TUPEd you will not lose your job in 90 days. A Managed Service is there because it will benefit or make little negative difference to the majority of schools.

    Now ... can I get on with writing up the notes? I know you aren't interested in them but others may be.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    A managed service does not mean that you will be TUPEd. If you are TUPEd you will not lose your job in 90 days. A Managed Service is there because it will benefit or make little negative difference to the majority of schools.
    .
    You cannot say that ... You are making massive assumptions and cannot guarantee peoples jobs if they are TUPED as you grandiosely state… 8)

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    The TUPE consultation period prior to the transfer must disclose to all affected employees whether the new employer envisages any changes to the workforce (reducing the workforce). This is the law and not something RM are doing to be nice, they are simply not allowed to make redundancy to TUPE employees unless they have disclosed so in the consultation period.

    Unfortunately the TUPE regulations do not extend to consultation with edugeek because edugeek isn't part of the affected workforce (although we might be individually) therefore they can be telling edugeek one thing and saying something completely different to the affected workforce (trade union rep). This consultation isn't part of the consultation, and shouldn't be taken as such.

    My feeling is that the point of this meeting with edugeek (and the reason I didn't attend) is purely an exercise to raise the profile of RM/BSF as a result of consistent bad press. The consultation document with the individual LA's are the only documents which are legally binding.

    but thanks for your time anyway.

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    @Grommit.

    About Foundation schools, I was under the impression, that Foundation (and whatever else "opted-out" types), were able to "choose" whether to join BSF or not.

    ...actually all schools are supposed to be able to choose...

    Of course, what they say _now_, may have changed in 5 years.

    -==-

    If you get TUPEd, it's because your SLT (and LEA) decide to TUPE you...

    -==-

    Actually our school is quite good at working with other schools... Primaries admittedly... we send out specialty staff to do teaching in the local "feeder" schools

    The fact that a lot of us are willing to sign up to this forum, means that we are able to work in groups... it's just, that, damnit... we want to be able to choose which groups.



    I'm sure there's lots (or at least some) things that the BSF scheme will introduce that we will want to sign upto, but there's lots of things that I don't (necessarily). Every so often I get chatting to the local RM chappie, and he shows off a really cool util, but we have to sign up to the full RM package to use it... But I don't want to... and I suspect I will see a lot of similar stuff....

    LEA wide VLE = Yes (because I'd rather not mess with it).
    LEA wide Internet = Maybe.
    LEA wide SIMS management = not with my LEA.
    LEA wide PC purchasing = NO! Not after using the machines they got from the LfT scheme.

    There's going to be a lot of the same type of stuff.

    I want to be able to select "modules" of support etc... but I doubt this will be possible. I want to be able to continue to use my current suppliers, as they provide good service.. but I doubt I will be able to do this.



    I would have liked to be able to attend the meeting you had with RM, but I had to work (ha) so I will wait until the notes are all typed up...

    It would have been sensible for me (and others) to have written up a list of questions we wanted answering. -> I'm sure someone will now point me to a thread where this happened, but I managed to miss...


    -==-

    Do you have any plans to contact other bid winners... actually not sure who any of them are (I'm guessing Capita will have tried)...

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    Re: BSF Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by User3204
    It would have been sensible for me (and others) to have written up a list of questions we wanted answering. -> I'm sure someone will now point me to a thread where this happened, but I managed to miss...


    -==-

    Do you have any plans to contact other bid winners... actually not sure who any of them are (I'm guessing Capita will have tried)...
    http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?nam...ewtopic&t=8664

    Yes if we can we keep asking them

    Russ

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