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Blue Skies Thread, Chrome will bring about the ICT revolution in schools in General; Originally Posted by SYNACK I have some of the same concerns, there is a big difference between locally hosted software ...
  1. #151


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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    I have some of the same concerns, there is a big difference between locally hosted software that you have administrative control over and the system, storeage and software being totally controlled by the external provider. I always like to keep a plan B in reserve for if and when these providers decide to change what they offer or how they offer it.
    I think the days of locally hosted are over. Even the office 2013 default behaviour is to save to the cloud. Its just too convenient for users to have a single place for everything and more so when software experiences are the same on a multitude of devices at home,at work etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    I think the days of locally hosted are over. Even the office 2013 default behaviour is to save to the cloud. Its just too convenient for users to have a single place for everything and more so when software experiences are the same on a multitude of devices at home,at work etc.
    Another bone to pick, the fascination and the folly of "The Cloud". so many people have bought into the idea of the cloud that those people who run the cloud services must be laughing at how easy it has been to convince you to give up your data security.

    And just because it may be an option to save Office docs to the cloud, doesnt mean you should use it. In fact for me that would constitute a security issue.

    Honestly the level of blind acceptance to Google stuff and The Cloud makes this about the most disturbing thread i have seen in a while.

  3. #153


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    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    So are you going to make Little Jimmy fully aware that his data might be subject to collection by Google when you let him use their products or hand him a chromebook. I wonder if you might want think of the possible legal ramifications of acting so blaise about this.

    For the record, at the schools i admin, not even staff have access to webmail, because of the possible legal issues that they could expose the school to, and yet your attitude is a free for all and no questions asked....

    And please tell me exactly how Microsoft have been data mining students data?

    Oh enough, honestly im tired of trying to highlight issues which i thin are valid to people who would rather bury their heads in sand.
    Office 365, skydrive , live webmail work in exactly the same ways as google albeit with fewer features. The kids only have temporary accounts anyway, its not like their 365 account is going to follow them around for the rest of their lives.

  4. #154

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    I think the days of locally hosted are over. Even the office 2013 default behaviour is to save to the cloud. Its just too convenient for users to have a single place for everything and more so when software experiences are the same on a multitude of devices at home,at work etc.
    Oh they are trying, when everything is cloud based they have all the switches and can do whatever the hell they want and you have very little if any recourse. You can also just as easily point 2013 at your own sharepoint box which you can have globally reachable and host locally, or at least on systems you can control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    Office 365, skydrive , live webmail work in exactly the same ways as google albeit with fewer features. The kids only have temporary accounts anyway, its not like their 365 account is going to follow them around for the rest of their lives.
    Nope, but the data stripped and mined from it will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    Nope, but the data stripped and mined from it will.
    I'm sure MS and Google will be fascinated by their schoolwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    Another bone to pick, the fascination and the folly of "The Cloud". so many people have bought into the idea of the cloud that those people who run the cloud services must be laughing at how easy it has been to convince you to give up your data security.

    And just because it may be an option to save Office docs to the cloud, doesnt mean you should use it. In fact for me that would constitute a security issue.

    Honestly the level of blind acceptance to Google stuff and The Cloud makes this about the most disturbing thread i have seen in a while.
    The cloud does provide a significant number of issues, security is one of them, and we have legislation to follow over it in the UK. As far as I've been concerned, I follow what the law says, and that's about it. If the DPA allows us to use servers in Germany, and those servers comply with the laws, then we are being perfectly safe with out data.

    However, the issues I always have with cloud related things are more complex - availability, reliability, management etc... If you're in a city and your net connection is flawless then things are a lot simpler but if you're in a rural area with expensive and unreliable internet then you're not going to choose cloud related goods.

    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    Nope, but the data stripped and mined from it will.
    Anonymised data that bears no relation to anyone after they leave? What's the damage that'll do? Is it not worth the same as buying products in?

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    What exactly are they mining then, and what do you propose they're planning to do with this data?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben604 View Post
    What exactly are they mining then, and what do you propose they're planning to do with this data?
    Does it matter? Even if they just mishandle it (the searchable issue that GAPS had) that is a problem, the fact that the data is accessable. You don't print out your confidential staff records and stick them to the schools windows, or even store them in a folder in a room that contractors can wander in and out of, they usually go in a locked fileing cabinet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Does it matter? Even if they just mishandle it (the searchable issue that GAPS had) that is a problem, the fact that the data is accessable. You don't print out your confidential staff records and stick them to the schools windows, or even store them in a folder in a room that contractors can wander in and out of, they usually go in a locked fileing cabinet.
    It would be against both Microsoft and Google's terms of service if they made data accessible, they would be sued if they divulged anything confidential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Again, you're isolating 'IE' and 'Chrome'. IE requires Windows. IE doesn't include Flash by default, Chrome does (so that increases exploits). If you take into account Windows exploits too, IE suddenly shoots up the ranks. If you run a Chromebook, you're running on Linux. Ok, there's a massive amount of variability in Linux distros, but security vulnerabilities in the base OS are significantly less than Windows out of the box.
    Yep, i am isolating Chrome and IE. For this simple reason, one comes as part of the OS, and one you have to manually install. And i believe thats its responsible to mitigate security issues, and by installing Chrome, as it currently stands, its counterproductive in my opinion. Why would any sane person install something thats less secure than a built in component of the OS.

    Lets be clear, Chrome uses WebKit, which has the most exploits of any browser engine. And its used in Safari and iTunes, so if you have a Mac and run all these then good luck to you. And of course the once popular Opera has announced its moving to WebKit...bad move....sure to make it even less relevant

    IE doesnt use WebKit, and while the underlying OS has had its share of exploits (more in the past than present), show me where the 291 exploits Chrome had last year match the 291 in Windows OS.......in fact in a sign of generosity, ill let you add the underlying OS exploits and the IE exploits together, and you'll still fall horribly a long long way short of 291

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Arguing that you have expertise on this because you have 30 years of experience is fine, but it could also be argued that you're 'set in your ways' due to it. It also screams 'arrogance' to me personally, but hey, your experience is definitely worth listening to, but I'll balance it against my own.
    I started out in Unix, ah the old days when you had to write your own device drivers, have worked for HP, ISP's, turned down a job at Microsoft, Government and law enforcement agencies and several Universities and schools. My first interface to the net was gopher, so i was using the Net well before the WWW.

    So when i see that my digital footprint is nil after 20 odd years, yet people who have been on for like a week turn up in search results, then i kind of take a serious view of personal data security.

    So if you think its arrogant of me to mention my experience, then thats your interpretation, im just mentioning merely with the intent of using it as background for what i consider an important argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Remember, everything everyone does on a computer is a balancing act between security, functionality and cost. Chromebooks do not suffer from Windows vulnerabilities, or ActiveX, etc... They don't have to worry about any Windows malware etc... This may be down to there being less of them overall, but it is still an aspect of security you can take into account when doing your risk assessment. If we all just go for plain statistics about vulnerabilities, we wouldn't be using the internet at all.
    See my earlier point about mitigating security issues by not installing a 3rd party application that has more vulnerabilities than the equivalent program already present in the OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Why would you tell a child that a company has access to their data, outside of normal education about internet safety? Do we have to warn them when they use any software that reports back to its manufacturer? There's a helluva lot of it out there. Including Internet Explorer. You do realise that Microsoft offer such services to schools too? Office 365? Live@Edu or whatever its called now.
    Some might see it as their right to be advised of such, i do. Its not your right to agree to submit their data on their behalf, without their knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You are making out that everyone is hanging their kids out to dry, and somehow implying that Microsoft are entirely innocent of it too.
    No im not, i havent said that Microsoft doesnt do it, i have said its not their main business, whereas Googles is.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Not giving staff access to webmail? Well that depends on what your concerns are. Technological solutions to people problems are not solutions in my mind. They encourage places to bury their heads in the sand because they assume the technological solution will eliminate the potential issues.
    Thats right, they have an exchange account for school business, which is all they should be using during their school day for school related communications, for which they are paid. They are not blocked from receiving email of a personal nature form outside the domain of a personal nature. But they arent allowed to email information or upload documents which may contain confidential or student related information to any web based mail service. this is to protect confidential information, student data and to legally protect the school.


    Anyways time for me to head off, still alarmed.
    Last edited by stylemessiah; 22nd March 2013 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    I'm sure MS and Google will be fascinated by their schoolwork.
    Nope, but they will love to have their names, any date information, any personal information to be able to identify and track that person in future.

    When you realise that employment agencies are already not only rejecting applicants by keywords and phrases in cover letters and resumes, but then submitting those on the short list to companies who do background checks using data that has already been mined, then you might take things a little more seriously.

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    @stylemessiah So with your wealth of experience are you now so fearful of installing anything not present in the operating system?

    You seem to be leveling a lot of accusations against Google without any proof that they are even doing the things you suggest - which are clearly outside of their terms and conditions anyway. It wouldn't be legal for Google or Microsoft to pass on data to employment agencies, they would be sued into oblivion. Why do you think they are doing it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    @stylemessiah So with your wealth of experience are you now so fearful of installing anything not present in the operating system?

    You seem to be leveling a lot of accusations against Google without any proof that they are even doing the things you suggest - which are clearly outside of their terms and conditions anyway. It wouldn't be legal for Google or Microsoft to pass on data to employment agencies, they would be sued into oblivion. Why do you think they are doing it?
    Umm, if you read above, i have already stated i dont use IE...so no, im not against installing things not in the OS...cleared up.

    What im against is installing things which are full of exploits far far above what are present in those equivalents in the OS, in the case when specifically talking about Chrome and IE. Its utter madness to do so. no admin worth his left teste would do such a thing.

    Really, as you seem to love google, if i wanted to deal with fanboyism, i'd go over to Neowin....really really over blind faith fanboys....really

    Youre right its illegal for them to openly disclose any information they gather of a personal nature. But then its hard to sue a company who isnt doing it openly.

    Reminds me of the AT&T & Verizon personal disclosure terms and agreements, and how well they worked, right up until a whistleblower blew the lid on the FBI to a lesser extent, and the NSA a larger, having their own rooms at AT&T & Verizon where they spliced directly into trunk lines and had access to all users data, not just those who were subject to warrants. When the staffer blew the whistle the FBI pointed out that the companies (AT&T & Verizon) themselves were data mining their own customers and passing on their information to 3rd parties. And the story quickly died.

    And you dont think that Google, with its huge server farms, and whose entire business is based on user data, is doing anything but whats in its terms and conditions?

    Ummm, did someone call me naive earlier?

    Time for me to go to sleep....
    Last edited by stylemessiah; 22nd March 2013 at 01:57 PM.

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    Sounds like BS FUD to me.

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