Microsoft Surface at BETT 09

[russdev]

Can't we just ditch the "interactive" bit and keep the "table" part for that, though? Do we really need to spend thousands of pounds on being able to simulate bits of paper being passed from one side of the table to the other? Okay, I'm sure people will think up some more innovative ideas, and I'm sure the price of a interactive table ("IT"? Way too confusing) will eventually drop, I'd just like to avoid a situation where the price drops because schools have been chucking loads of money at the manufacturers again, as they have with IWBs. -- David Hicks

Maybe that’s the difference between us as adults and young people. We see a table with interaction they interaction with a table.

Our students are digital natives they live in a connected world us as adults wanting just a table to them is just old world not moving on. Seriously get some of your students in front of these and say play with it and sure you will you see the worth.

As for paying 6k maybe not and need to wait for price to come down but they will like it did with iwb.

Problem with IWB is the technology was brought to old world technology so an electronic board with ability of an old whiteboard. Where with the interactive tables it seems to other way they have started with the interaction and then put it in a case which is a table.

Second forget about software at the moment that will come one reason the ms board will take so long to take off due to lack of educational software designed for the board Smart have lead on this with their own software.

Russ

[shutdownplease]

The possibilities for collaberation in small groups is immense with these, not to mention bringing the groups together in meeting spaces via network surface devices.

How you can compare them to IWB i dont know as they provide a completely different learning experience and IWB are generally educationcentric, the surface is the future household PC i am sure.
Even gaming wise these could be a hit, give the unit a swivle base and you talking major functionality.
Sorry shutdownplease but i think you majorly miss the possibilities that the surface, and similar products, create.

Amazing technology!
Matt

oh i definitely see the possibilities of the surface outside of the school particularly in the home or business - my post though was focusing on its use within schools and based on the theory that prices will remain high for ms surface for a good few years I do not see that it is a viable product for a long while to come.

when (or if) it reaches the price of a single high end pc (1000 to a 1500 quid) then i would heartily recommend it for purchase within a school.

[SYNACK]

oh i definitely see the possibilities of the surface outside of the school particularly in the home or business - my post though was focusing on its use within schools and based on the theory that prices will remain high for ms surface for a good few years I do not see that it is a viable product for a long while to come.

when (or if) it reaches the price of a single high end pc (1000 to a 1500 quid) then i would heartily recommend it for purchase within a school.

Lets be remotely fair and say that they would probably be a good deal if they came down to the price of a high end pc and a 50 inch or greater touch screen. It is not like it can only be used by one person at a time either like a normal pc, it is designed to be used by many and so as a teaching tool the cost per simultanious user will work out better than trying to estimate its worth like a single pc.

[dhicks]

Seriously get some of your students in front of these and say play with it and sure you will you see the worth.

I don't think interactive tables, or interactive whiteboards (which, for us, are still expensive), are going to come down in price soon enough not to be overtaken by other technology. We're getting to the stage where PCs will soon be pretty much disposable - £99 for a laptop means we can afford to dish out a PC per child better than we can afford tables and/or whiteboards, and that price is only going to carry on dropping over the next few years. Bill Gates' vision of a "personal computer", one per person, is actually coming true (ironically, mainly due to Linux making for ultra-cheap laptops...).

Second forget about software at the moment that will come

The software is worth thinking about right from the start, otherwise we wind up with people creating resources that are locked in to one propitiatory system. Hardware companies should stick to making the hardware, you should distrust any packaged software.

--
David Hicks

[russdev]

@David

When I meant worth I meant educational worth I still think 6 grand is too much but they will come down I am sure of that.

The software know you bring an interesting point the fact that ms have sat on demo models for so long means that partner companies have not had chance to create software for it so in Microsoft case is going to hinder the roll out.

When I said about software main thing is that software companies will fill the void like they have done with IWB. Every IWB has some kind of 'notebook' software on it but lot of resources are from third party software houses (hence why ms sitting on demo is going to hinder them)

As for them taking over other technology I never said that it all links into together. Again in my view (and this includes me) we look at at from old way point of view we get hung up on this piece of technology and this item where as students look at from the view of the "technology in front of me".

Don't get me wrong they are not to replace the current technology but compliment the current technology.

As for device for every student...

Also I had interesting conversation with head of E-Learning foundation down at BETT about technology prices and ability for parents to pay for it.

In her view the tipping point is 1 pound a week over two years so devices need to be about £100 which at moment we are just getting to not quite there yet but nearly (as you have to make it last two years so the really cheap devices are not quite right yet).

But then to be very blunt why are we wasting money on providing every student with say internet enabled handheld device when 80% have them already have one at home. So maybe we should be looking to to provide the devices for the other 20% who don't have them at home (arr home access money). Then that means we can be spending money on those extra things like tables/iwb.

This of course means we have to step away from the network deny button and allow student devices on the network something I think we all need to start doing in the next few years....

I have asked question to several people over last few weeks about allowing home devices on the network several said yes that is easy to do but yet we all seem to say "personnel devices on network over my dead body".

So then question is why are we saying it?

Russ

[dhicks]

Every IWB has some kind of 'notebook' software on it but lot of resources are from third party software houses

And I reckon there's also a substantial number of teacher-created resources now stuck in propitiatory IWB formats. A number of departments, or whole schools, aren't going to have any choice of hardware supplier if they decide they want an interactive table, they'll simply have to wait and see what a particular vendor produces if they want to keep their existing resources.

As for them taking over other technology I never said that

No, I think interactive tables stand a good chance of being over taken by other technologies, as in other things will be developed faster and more adaptably. Interactive tables are big-ticket items, and although I accept that the price will come down eventually, you still can't sit a whole class of 30 around one - you'd need half a dozen interactive tables (hmm, 5? Say £6,000 per table, seats 6 - I guess that's £1,000 per seat, which isn't that bad really, good value even) for that, which is getting pricey. Okay, so I guess that'd be a price similar to an ICT suite, but I think a room of interactive tables will have less general use than PCs.

You could have an interactive table in a classroom that you could use as part of a carousel of activities, but I reckon you could do the same better with a couple of laptops. For the cost of a single table you could buy a classes worth of laptops. Heck, you could probably buy more than one per pupil - no need to have a on-screen representation of multiple electronic documents being passed around a desktop, you could actually physically do it.

Then that means we can be spending money on those extra things like tables/iwb.

I think there's better things we could spend the money on - teachers, staff, etc.

we all seem to say "personnel devices on network over my dead body".

I don't - anyone can wander in and use our network, there's no way for us to stop them. Web sites are transparently filtered, of course, and servers and file areas are password protected, but nothing more than that.

--
David Hicks

[russdev]

I don't - anyone can wander in and use our network, there's no way for us to stop them. Web sites are transparently filtered, of course, and servers and file areas are password protected, but nothing more than that.

..of course comment wasn't aimed at you per say but topic in general.

But then you work for progressive school and head

Seriously you unique in that sense of allowing pupils to bring their own devices on the network.

Lot of networks are walled areas...

Russ

[NewOrder]

Have a look at this folks [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY&feature=related"]YouTube - Microsoft Surface Parody[/ame]

A good thread. I just wish head teachers would read the debate. Understand the issues before making decisons over whether to buy one or not. For Surface to be successful in education there needs to be applications for it. For people to develop applications they need a market. Its a chicken and egg scenario.

You could always rent it out for PTA evenings so they can run some poker nights

[dhicks]

Lot of networks are walled areas...

I bet most of them aren't actually nearly as walled as they think. I was particularly struck by the article in this month's PC Pro on "spy" technology, which pointed out that a key logger device (plug it in between the keyboard and PC, done) costs around £30. I don't really see how we can realisticly defend against that kind of thing, short of using some kind of ultra-paranoid two-factor login system for the PCs, or finger prints, or doing daily checks on the backs of every PC, or making sure every keyboard connection is ultra-securely locked away inside a case or similar. Any/all of these steps would take time/money and cause inconvenience for our users, and schools already have enough difficulty, what with their users swapping around each hour. It's enough to make you want to just give every pupil a laptop - with no keyboard port to plug anything in to, you can't go too far wrong.

Problem is, some management types would tend to see login data more as absolute proof rather than the vague guidelines they actually are. If a child gets another's login details they could log on as that other child to do all their hacking/bullying/porn surfing and that other child gets all the blame. Piling more and more security on to a system costs money, causes fiddly delays in actually using the computers and makes for a more "brittle" system - a system which you might have to put extra initial effort in to break, but when you do so the results, and damage you can cause, are greater. Better to go on the assumption that your system is full of holes anyway and act accordingly.

--
David Hicks

[SYNACK]

I was particularly struck by the article in this month's PC Pro on "spy" technology, which pointed out that a key logger device (plug it in between the keyboard and PC, done) costs around £30. I don't really see how we can realisticly defend against that kind of thing,

Its ashame these - http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Secure_20USB_20keyboard - don't seem to exist yet as they could render keyloggers useless, just a custom USB keyboard with a special driver that decrypts they keystrokes once they make it to the OS.

[apoth0r]

It sounds like a nice idea for primary schools but again it will be about the staffing within these schools. Having a group of a few children on the interactive tables is great, but what about the 25 other children that need their needs met too. Fair enough some schools have the staff, but it's down to that at then end of the day. Some schools have all their TA's tied up with reading and writing schemes that REQUIRE a constant daily timetable. Would be great for kids to use these things though, just needs an interactive adult to watch over them too (at no additional cost)

[Grumpydev]

The software know you bring an interesting point the fact that ms have sat on demo models for so long means that partner companies have not had chance to create software for it so in Microsoft case is going to hinder the roll out.

Did anyone manage to play the collaborative spelling/word/maths game that was on the Surface at BETT? I was one of the developers and I would be interested in any feedback (good or bad!) from anyone that had chance to play it.

It was well and truly pimped at the RM area, but I'm not sure Microsoft themselves did a particularly good job.

[JJonas]

I didnt play it but I did see it being played and was quite impressed. At struck me as being something our special needs department might be interested in. Unfortunately at the moment I feel the Surface system is too expensive for us, but I will be watching to see how it develops in the future.

[Grumpydev]

I didnt play it but I did see it being played and was quite impressed. At struck me as being something our special needs department might be interested in. Unfortunately at the moment I feel the Surface system is too expensive for us, but I will be watching to see how it develops in the future.

I think they're still too expensive to justify for a school, but they've only just really sorted out the production of them in any kind of volume so hopefully the cost will start to come down.

The idea of the proof of concept app we did was to spark the imagination of the people there and hopefully generate some interest for when the price is a bit more palatable.

[gaz350]

@David

When I meant worth I meant educational worth I still think 6 grand is too much but they will come down I am sure of that.

The software know you bring an interesting point the fact that ms have sat on demo models for so long means that partner companies have not had chance to create software for it so in Microsoft case is going to hinder the roll out.

When I said about software main thing is that software companies will fill the void like they have done with IWB. Every IWB has some kind of 'notebook' software on it but lot of resources are from third party software houses (hence why ms sitting on demo is going to hinder them)

As for them taking over other technology I never said that it all links into together. Again in my view (and this includes me) we look at at from old way point of view we get hung up on this piece of technology and this item where as students look at from the view of the "technology in front of me".

Don't get me wrong they are not to replace the current technology but compliment the current technology.

As for device for every student...

Also I had interesting conversation with head of E-Learning foundation down at BETT about technology prices and ability for parents to pay for it.

In her view the tipping point is 1 pound a week over two years so devices need to be about £100 which at moment we are just getting to not quite there yet but nearly (as you have to make it last two years so the really cheap devices are not quite right yet).

But then to be very blunt why are we wasting money on providing every student with say internet enabled handheld device when 80% have them already have one at home. So maybe we should be looking to to provide the devices for the other 20% who don't have them at home (arr home access money). Then that means we can be spending money on those extra things like tables/iwb.

This of course means we have to step away from the network deny button and allow student devices on the network something I think we all need to start doing in the next few years....

I have asked question to several people over last few weeks about allowing home devices on the network several said yes that is easy to do but yet we all seem to say "personnel devices on network over my dead body".

So then question is why are we saying it?

Russ

Russ can you hear our conversation over here in rutland or something? we had this exact discussion in a meeting discussing the ICT vision for our new college with the ICT consultants. I dont know about you but i hate saying no to people.

One place we see the MS surface like tables is in some of our more public spaces. our LRC for example will have collaboration 'pods' which these will fit in very nicely, only thing i can see wrong with them is they could do with being a little bigger?