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AV and Multimedia Related Thread, Video Editing Software in Technical; Originally Posted by Steve21 Isn't the point to learn the underlaying skills of how it works. Not how to click ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    Isn't the point to learn the underlaying skills of how it works. Not how to click a certain button though?

    It's like saying don't use open office, as everyone uses ms office. End of day whether you have a button with a cow, or a button with a dog. If it does the same thing it's the same skills surely?

    Just think relying on a single program isn't always the best option, especially when you'll find every "industry standard" program is only standard in a small area. Take business/accounting etc. Is excel standard? access? sage? insert 5milllllllion more programs.

    Some would say teaching kids to click a button is setting them more back then teaching them what a button does.

    Just my opinion though

    Thanks,
    Steve
    Valid points but in the case of video editing why use a package then, why not use movie maker? It's a very simple video editing package but you can still crop / add transitions / sound effects / titles.

    I just think getting students familiar with a more complicated package (for example adobe master collection) will benefit them more in the future than something like serif.

    At my school we had the full serif suite, we still do as some teachers can't bare to be dragged away from it, we also purchase adobe CS4 master collection and the work being done in media, film studies and photography using adobe eclipses any work in school done in serif (often by the same students in different subjects).

    I believe we are adding more value to students allowing them access and experience of packages like photoshop, illustrator, indesign, premiere and dreamweaver than if we just had serif.

    I know I have digressed slightly away from just video ediing into a broader discussion but I consider the whole thing very much linked.

    It's just frustrating seeing pupils held back on occassions because the teacher can't keep up with them using adobe so forces the use of serif and the work / student suffers.

    It is partly down to money but then they do say you get what you pay for and I don't believe anyone would honestly say a full serif package is as good a product as an Adobe master collection (whether it be cs4, 5.5 or 6). Perhaps I'm wrong....

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    It's ok recommending Serif because its cheap but at the end of the day is that 'industry standard' and adding value to the students? They'll use Serif in school, leave and then have what experience of real life video editing software will they have?

    Somewhere between 'none' and 'very little'.

    It's sometimes a case of stepping back and thinking, what will add the most value to the students in later life? I'm not sure Serif does that. Just a personal opinion.....
    Schools teach transferable skills, not individual packages. We have to remember this when someone tries to insist on a program being 'industry standard'. It may be industry standard *now* but in a few years time?

    And why not WMM? Because it is unstable and not a nice package to use to teach those skills. The sheer size of files that Adobe Premier and Premier Elements produces rules it out for widespread use here.
    Last edited by localzuk; 29th June 2012 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Schools teach transferable skills, not individual packages. We have to remember this when someone tries to insist on a program being 'industry standard'. It may be industry standard *now* but in a few years time?
    In a few years time wouldn't you have swapped packages to something more current as part of a rolling cycle anyway? Teaching transferable skills is obviously what schools should be doing, but at the same time schools need to produce results and from my experience quality of work done in Adobe CS4 is better than in Serif X whatever version we have, X4?

    I'm only using Adobe CS4 as my example as it's relevant to me as we have it in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    And why not WMM? Because it is unstable and not a nice package to use to teach those skills. The sheer size of files that Adobe Premier and Premier Elements produces rules it out for widespread use here.
    We have plenty of free space currently on our SAN's so file size's doesn't concern us as much, obviously this changes from school to school depending on your hardware so granted, something to consider before buying.

    Having said that for a 3 - 5minute video (which our KS5 produce for media and film studies) the main file sizes to consider are the original video media rather than the Premiere project itself. The render files themselves can't be ignored admittedly but still nothing to worry about too much from my experience.


    Ultimately I'm not arguing the principal people are pushing about not teaching a software but teaching a skill but I am arguing that you can do both and give the students some better experience and end results.

    My view may be tainted by the teaching staff within my own school and the frustrations with them but I will still stand by my point that in my opinion Serif isn't as good an overall software package as Adobe.

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    We have started using cyberlink power director. Had no complains at all with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    In a few years time wouldn't you have swapped packages to something more current as part of a rolling cycle anyway? Teaching transferable skills is obviously what schools should be doing, but at the same time schools need to produce results and from my experience quality of work done in Adobe CS4 is better than in Serif X whatever version we have, X4?

    I'm only using Adobe CS4 as my example as it's relevant to me as we have it in school.
    So if the industry standard package is gonna change, why teach to it, at a cost of 5x as much as Serif?

    We have plenty of free space currently on our SAN's so file size's doesn't concern us as much, obviously this changes from school to school depending on your hardware so granted, something to consider before buying.

    Having said that for a 3 - 5minute video (which our KS5 produce for media and film studies) the main file sizes to consider are the original video media rather than the Premiere project itself. The render files themselves can't be ignored admittedly but still nothing to worry about too much from my experience.
    Our experience has been very different. Average project from Premiere Elements - > 1GB in size for a tiny video + source videos. Same project done in Serif, < 100Mb, including all the source files.

    And then there's backups of all those files.

    Ultimately I'm not arguing the principal people are pushing about not teaching a software but teaching a skill but I am arguing that you can do both and give the students some better experience and end results.

    My view may be tainted by the teaching staff within my own school and the frustrations with them but I will still stand by my point that in my opinion Serif isn't as good an overall software package as Adobe.
    And our budget doesn't need to stretch to that. We own CS3 Design Premium, and Serif. Master suite for our site would be over 10k, as we have more than 500 PCs. We've not found anything that Adobe can do that Serif can't, that is relevant to the courses being taught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    So if the industry standard package is gonna change, why teach to it, at a cost of 5x as much as Serif?
    In our experience you'd pay for the end results, which as I have said are much better in CS4 than in Serif. Perhaps that's the teachers who are using the packages? We have the same teachers using CS4 as did Serif and the quality of work being produced has increased dramatically from those courses. The courses still using Serif havent really changed at all in terms of quality of work in the same time scale. As I say, perhaps thats the teachers? Maybe the software plays a part? Maybe it's the pupils using it or a combination of all 3....

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Our experience has been very different. Average project from Premiere Elements - > 1GB in size for a tiny video + source videos. Same project done in Serif, < 100Mb, including all the source files.

    And then there's backups of all those files.
    As I said, and I know this changes from school to school, the file sizes don't particularly worry us if the work is of sufficient quality to warrant it and we have the space for the students to have the sorts of file sizes your speaking of. A project of 1gb isn't exactly massive though and when coursework is only 3-5minutes long as it is on the courses we teach, the projects aren't going to be 'massive'.

    We purposefully bought the space on both our SAN's to handle this though with the knowledge we have a lot of media courses which do produce some fairly large file sizes. 1gb per student doesnt sound like a lot until there are 60 students, and that's just one course so yes, file size is a consideration but if you are planning on using the software, you buy the hardware to support it. That goes across all subjects / software packages though, not just the example of Serif vs Adobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    And our budget doesn't need to stretch to that. We own CS3 Design Premium, and Serif. Master suite for our site would be over 10k, as we have more than 500 PCs. We've not found anything that Adobe can do that Serif can't, that is relevant to the courses being taught.
    We paid 10k for CS4 Master Collection nearly 3 years ago, with the level of use it has had and the work it has helped to produce it was money well spent. We probably wont be upgrading from CS4 for another 12 - 24 months I wouldn't have thought. Like i said though, our media, photography and film courses didn't produce the type of work they do now when they used Serif even though it's the same staff teaching them.

    It will obviously vary from school to school depending on budget, teacher capabilities etc.


    You can also put Adobe on Mac's, if a school has some maybe thats a consideration, I dont think you can with Serif can you?
    Last edited by RTFM; 29th June 2012 at 06:24 PM.

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  13. #22

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    By the way, apologies if this is all taking the thread off topic @Gongalong, maybe this debate will help you to decide what is best and give you some things to consider beside just which package is best

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    I'll have to correct myself and say the 1500 we paid was for 32 licences of the whole suite not just Movie Plus.

    Ben

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    I think it depends a lot on the course. For teaching a full course on video editing or media studies it probably makes sense to use final cut or adobe premier. If your doing a module that's a couple of weeks long, then you may not have the time to teach a full video editing package. It might be that the project is to produce a video about a topic and not be about learning video editing. Also, in a busy school the teachers may not have time to learn new software.

    Its all about having the right tools for the job. Given good source footage, I think you can get some pretty good results with serif.

    And frankly, Windows Movie Maker can't die soon enough.

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    Pugh do the site license for Sony Vegas Pro site license for 2500 with just Movie Studio 750

    Both unlimited users.
    Sony Education Site Licenses | Sony | Products | - discounted software for education establishments

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    I'm disappointed no-one has mentioned Blender yet as it has a perfectly capable and really quite easy to learn and use video editor built in, its totally free and open source and available for all major and minor operating systems- you do not need to know how to use any of Blenders 3D modelling or compositing features to edit video with it although it all helps.

    What blender lacks is an easy way to do simple animated 2D video titling but I solved this prob using GIMP + GAP - Linux users can compile the latest gap git easy enough but we're waiting on a new GIMP GAP release for windows afaik so that you can export pngs or tiffs with transparencies then import the frames into Blender to do credits etc. without having to master Blender in full.

    Maybe there is a different, free app for video titling that could be used under Windows to accompany Blender? I suspect you could pull it off with a paint app and ffmpeg with some command line fu and patience but thats not such a kiddy and consumer friendly solution as GIMP/GAP which lets you point and click your creation.

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    As for other great free video editors, Linux users can enjoy KDEnlive which has been compared to Sony Vegas and soon both Windows and Linux users will be able to get Lightworks, the original profressional video editor dating back to '89 used for many feature films, soon to be open sourced!

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    Thanks all for the great quantity and quality of replies! Very much appreciated, along with the discussions also

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    Quote Originally Posted by danboid View Post
    As for other great free video editors, Linux users can enjoy KDEnlive which has been compared to Sony Vegas and soon both Windows and Linux users will be able to get Lightworks, the original profressional video editor dating back to '89 used for many feature films, soon to be open sourced!
    The free version of Lightworks is pretty much crippled on codecs. Just tried it with some MOV and 3gp files from my phone and just comes up with unlicensed format - balls I was looking forward to using that, I don't want to have to format factory all my files first. Dammit!

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    Sony Vegas might be cheap but is a nightmare to deploy!

    As for the argument about the industry standard, we have both installed and pupils choose which to use. Some cannot grasp using Adobe products and prefer Serif, others prefer Adobe. If our pupils were all forced to use Adobe, then i imagine the average grade would decrease, if they were all forced to sue Serif then I imagine the top grades might decrease. it's down to two things, cost and then personal preference.

    Most of the students won't ever do more video editing then that they learn in school, so the industry standard won't apply for them. The ones that will go on to video edit, I feel sorry for as well as by the time they get there we'll be on to Adobe 10 at the rate Adobe are publising!

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