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AV and Multimedia Related Thread, HD-DV Camcorders in Technical; Originally Posted by SteveBentley I think flash/hard drive is getting more common for news where the fast turnaround is a ...
  1. #16
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveBentley View Post
    I think flash/hard drive is getting more common for news where the fast turnaround is a huge benefit. Also many new build media facilities are "tapeless" - I think BBC Scotland's new(ish) Pacific Quay in Glasgow is an example.
    My point was, is that there is still a lot of tape based kit out there, and a lot of professionals using it. There won't be compatibility issues for a long time yet.

    To use another medium as an example, think VHS.

    We are now well down the road for DVD and Blu-ray (and still moving forward from that) but I still am able to purchase VHS equipment on which to play tape (we have a lot of tapes here we are transferring to DVD)

    Insofar as your average consumer is concerned though, VHS is dead in the water, and whilst I agree we are most definitely at the end of the road for VHS as a medium for new material, it is still very much a technology that can be obtained, albeit as a VHS/DVD recorder combo.

    AVCHD can be a right 'royal' to work with as someone else has said. I'm not entirely sure (because we work off tape based kit here) if Final Cut Pro can even handle some types of card based editing formats. I haven't the experience of trying, but I think there is ? hanging over it.




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    Last edited by theeldergeek; 22nd January 2010 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #17

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    I know from experience that Premiere Pro CS4 doesnt like all types of compression that Hard Drive cams use. Whilst the compression may be in a format PP will accept, the playback will simply be uneditable due to it jumping etc.

    That said, the problems with tapes is playing it back real time to capture it.

    Pros and cons for both arguments I suppose but be careful what cam you move onto if you were going to use a video edit'ing software with it. We've bought Sony due to the fact PP has Sony specific preset settings within it.

  3. #18
    dayzd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    I know from experience that Premiere Pro CS4 doesnt like all types of compression that Hard Drive cams use. Whilst the compression may be in a format PP will accept, the playback will simply be uneditable due to it jumping etc.
    That's exactly the issue I've had to deal with. The compression rate is so high (the datarate is often less than DV), all but the newest PC's can't play it back properly in it's raw format, let alone apply any filters as well. I've resorted to editing with DV versions of my AVCHD files, then replacing them before rendering my final output.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveBentley View Post
    Also many new build media facilities are "tapeless" - I think BBC Scotland's new(ish) Pacific Quay in Glasgow is an example.
    I remember reading an article last year outlining one of the BBC's tapeless HD suites. Custom linux builds and huge SAS/SAN arrays, IIRC...

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    Quote Originally Posted by abullett View Post
    That's exactly the issue I've had to deal with. The compression rate is so high (the datarate is often less than DV), all but the newest PC's can't play it back properly in it's raw format, let alone apply any filters as well. I've resorted to editing with DV versions of my AVCHD files, then replacing them before rendering my final output.
    We did something slightly different, convert all the files to .mov and then use the "mobile & devices -> ipod" preset in premiere and it worked fine.

    Just means converting the footage.

  5. #20
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    We did something slightly different, convert all the files to .mov and then use the "mobile & devices -> ipod" preset in premiere and it worked fine.

    Just means converting the footage.
    How long did it take, out of interest, and any noticeable loss of quality?

  6. #21
    dayzd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    Just means converting the footage.
    True, it's not that difficult, but I prefer not to use converted versions in final output (which is why I use the workflow metioned above). Plus it slows things down!

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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    How long did it take, out of interest, and any noticeable loss of quality?
    Not too long, its just standard converting really. We use AVS Video Converter. The quality hasn't appeared to be any worse either.

  8. #23
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    That's a very good point actually, I've got some footage which is in .mpg which I think came off a Sony Camcorder, with Premiere doesn't want to believe contains sound. I've had to convert it to wav in Super and hope that the lipsync doesn't break when I import both seperately and link them.

  9. #24
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    Not too long, its just standard converting really. We use AVS Video Converter. The quality hasn't appeared to be any worse either.
    Not too long? How long?

    What I'm getting at is, whilst you are converting it, and all the faffing around that that often requires, would a tape equivalent been just as easy to capture from?

    My workflow here for tape capture :

    Put tape in Sony deck, set capture limits in Final Cut Pro, capture and go and get on with other jobs, come back, edit.

    OK, capture time has to be done in real time, but pretty much all of the projects I have to work on here are well under an hour so it really isn't a major issue.

    From a personal aspect however, tape capture is a pain for the weddings that I have filmed, as that is usually anything up to 10 hours worth to capture.

    But again, I just set it up, let it capture, go watch telly.

    In the word of Aleksandr Orlov, "simples".

  10. #25
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveBentley View Post
    That's a very good point actually, I've got some footage which is in .mpg which I think came off a Sony Camcorder, with Premiere doesn't want to believe contains sound. I've had to convert it to wav in Super and hope that the lipsync doesn't break when I import both seperately and link them.
    Premiere Elements, or Pro CS?

    And do you have Quicktime Pro? If you do, you can convert it to an .avi which Premiere will lurve...

    Also try MPEG Streamclip, that's a good converter which will give you compatible output.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    Not too long? How long?

    What I'm getting at is, whilst you are converting it, and all the faffing around that that often requires, would a tape equivalent been just as easy to capture from?

    My workflow here for tape capture :

    Put tape in Sony deck, set capture limits in Final Cut Pro, capture and go and get on with other jobs, come back, edit.

    OK, capture time has to be done in real time, but pretty much all of the projects I have to work on here are well under an hour so it really isn't a major issue.

    From a personal aspect however, tape capture is a pain for the weddings that I have filmed, as that is usually anything up to 10 hours worth to capture.

    But again, I just set it up, let it capture, go watch telly.

    In the word of Aleksandr Orlov, "simples".
    Not too long = it depends how long your footage is, 1 min of footage probably takes, i dont know, 20-30 seconds to convert?

    Put it this way, the time it takes to convert footage wont be as long as it takes to play it back in real time I wouldnt have thought. This does depend on what your converting to / from....I could be wrong on that score though.

    In honesty I think its 6 and half a dozen. The only forseeable advantage of a tape rather than having to do converting is a possible loss of quality, but the converters we use dont seem to lose quality so.......*shrug*

    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    Premiere Elements, or Pro CS?

    And do you have Quicktime Pro? If you do, you can convert it to an .avi which Premiere will lurve...
    We have a Panasonic HDD cam that has a file format of .mod which if you convert to .avi PP doesnt like. I have to do it as .mpg for PP to play it back properly......strange I know!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveBentley View Post
    That's a very good point actually, I've got some footage which is in .mpg which I think came off a Sony Camcorder, with Premiere doesn't want to believe contains sound. I've had to convert it to wav in Super and hope that the lipsync doesn't break when I import both seperately and link them.
    I think that may be because the audio is in AC3. If it's Premiere Pro CS3 you've got, you can copy the "ad2ac3dec.dll" file from Encore into the root of the Premiere Pro folder. It should now import video files with AC3 audio properly.

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    To go back just a bit to the original post...since we're in a similar situation...have a need for a video camera that takes MiniDV tape (HD not specifically reqd though).

    Looking for something in the £200 - £300 range. Previously used Canon MV's but having trouble finding anything now.

    Tape still has it's uses here...PE dept do very little post processing...they like to film the event then put the tape into storage for use the following year. Tape's quite handy when no editing needed. They also have stock of recordings that they don't want to lose (but don't have time or desire to convert).

    Would be grateful if anyone could suggest good current supplier for MiniDV cameras?

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    Quote Originally Posted by abullett View Post
    I know this is changing the discussion slightly, but how do you handle /edit your AVCHD footage, laserblazer; what software do you use on what machine? Do you do any pre-processing in your workflow before you edit?

    I have an AVCHD camera (an early Canon HDD model) and have found AVCHD to be much more of a pain to use than I originally thought it'd be - largely due to processing demands to play the stuff back!
    That is the downside. I'm currently editing a 50 minute video using Premiere Elements 8 and it is so painfully slow. Up to now, I have been mixing footage from the HD cam. with SD and I've been converting the mts files to hdv which Premiere Pro 2.0 accepts. At 1440 x 1028 the clips are twice as big as the SD and have to be scaled down. It does give me the opportunity to apply zoom or Ken Burns effects without compromising the resolution.

  15. #30
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserblazer View Post
    That is the downside. I'm currently editing a 50 minute video using Premiere Elements 8 and it is so painfully slow. Up to now, I have been mixing footage from the HD cam. with SD and I've been converting the mts files to hdv which Premiere Pro 2.0 accepts. At 1440 x 1028 the clips are twice as big as the SD and have to be scaled down. It does give me the opportunity to apply zoom or Ken Burns effects without compromising the resolution.
    Lovin' the Ken Burns stuff! I do it with stills all the time



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